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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. While a lot of the coverage of the subject is for one event, there are strong arguments that there is substantial coverage of the subject. The arguments on both sides have merit. I relisted the debate to see if consensus would emerge to move or redirect the article, but I don't see any new convergence in the debate. Malinaccier (talk) 20:56, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Michel von Tell

[edit]
AfDs for this article:

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Michel von Tell (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:GNG; no notability demonstrated, passing mentions/owned media or press releases. He plays poker. Alexandermcnabb (talk) 09:55, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't see how it does establish notability! Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:20, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The example [1] above shows perfectly the library images (referred to below) used to illustrate the web-article - quite unconnected with the alleged-event, just to jazz it up (photographers Werk, Alessio Barbanti, Jason Critchell and Josh Kurpius - these all Google).--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 02:18, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did this Translation. I asked Admin Ipigott before and he also checked the article when it was done. Also some other Users helped to make it better. Article is part of many other WP. I cant do as much right now because I am in holiday. The source you asked for is allready in. The first one is the most long version I guess.

High media. Also this guy is a filmmaker, his podcast is in a top 100 who is who list, he was part of some international Rally's and and Races and so on. Watch the ref links. Do you don't like green Mobility? If so, you maybe interested in delet also the other article i wrote. Rafael de Mestre. There is much less/weak sources. NicitaX (talk) 00:43, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep: The article is sufficiently sourced from newspaper accounts in German and French, in addition to interviews and videos. His record is widely covered internationally. The sources mentioned above are adequate but many more could be found.--Ipigott (talk) 05:46, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comment - The only one of the above references that doesn't just seem to be coverage of the LiveWire run is the interview in Lie-Zeit, but interviews don't establish notability as the content is not independent of the source. If the Harley Davidson LiveWire distance run is the only thing that Tell is notable for, then isn't this really an instance of WP:BIO1E and isn't this best covered under LiveWire (motorcycle)? FOARP (talk) 09:02, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete As previously, when a (non-English first speaking) new editor - who turned out to have 17 confirmed aliases - came to En Wiki to promote a European gentleman. From memory, all of the European sources were minor websites with content created from press releases by the subject of the article (nothing like Das Motorrad).

    "Michel didn’t pay the hefty fee to Guinness World Records to validate his claimed record, but does have signed witness statements". (My name is Mark Hinchliffe and I am the founder of Motorbike Writer). {Initial link ref as added to the article by Ipigott)

    I only learned of churnalism this year, but I knew what it was. They claimed a World Record - they did not set anything - being entirely un-observed by any recognisable accreditation body. Moreover, there were no candid images - all of the sources used previously (likely the same as now) hosted library images, some with links to the photographer; and this guy is a film-maker???? Where are the images? GoPros? People with iPhones? A bit early for drones. I did extensive research previously - but I probably don't have the same access to certain European websites after Brexit. This new editor knew where/how to find the redirect and convert it into an En article 'by the back door', by copying from European Wikis, where the requirements are less stringent; there must be a wiki-name for it? Something ending in *****washing?
The Dutch version was established by the same (En-blocked) individual on 23 September 2020, followed by the Italian version on 6 October 2020. They were both from the En version, 3 Sept 2020. Bit of circular going on here.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 01:51, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - I cannot speak to the accuracy of all of the above but this is clearly a case of WP:BLP1E since the only sources that even look legit are coverage of a single incident (the distance-run on the Harley Davidson LiveWire). This incident is already covered in sufficient detail at LiveWire (motorcycle). Nothing that resembles reliable, independent sourcing covers any other aspect of Michel von Tell's life. This page does look very much like an undeclared COI creation given the way in which the creator was blocked for sock-puppetry. FOARP (talk) 07:58, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment This is similar to what's happening with Draft:Mario Kleff where the CoI SPAs were blocked and a series of promotional articles mainly deleted, then along comes another new registration, one-hour later trying to re-create exactly the same hommage to a German engineer who is well known in, and very important to, the Thai town of Pattaya. After writing this I've just checked to find the 'new' author was blocked 29 days ago.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 14:08, 9 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]



This article is not new. It exist for years. It just was a redirect. Because it was to short. I saw this while my work at Eco Grand Prix article. So i created the missing red link Rafael de Mestre. Later I expand this article here. I did not create this article. It was already blue here. As redirect. So I expanded this based on a translation and add new additional informations. The Grand Prix and some new sources and new interviews. After this was done it was longer and we had a stand alone. I also showed the result to an Admin an it was ok to him. As Ipigott correctly said. There are tons of sources. I found over 100 articles from all over the world. Several videos, movies, podcasts and interviews over a period of 20 years! Just here you will find 50 ref links of global reporting. https://schweiz.fandom.com/de/wiki/Michel_von_Tell

For example, 2 detailed interviews on 2 different topics from 2 different continents. United States

Europe

The record is out of question and is well documented. Even is some patrol-heads are not particularly informed or do not want to be informed. Supposedly it is not in the Guinness book. However, they provide with no evidence for this and just say so. Also everybody should know that most motorsport and big records are not in this book from this private beer company. That's because this book doesn't collect records! It usually only lists simple records of private people. Their customers who paid them. You can read about it on their website. Of course, you don't need this private beer company to set an official record. Who on earth really believes that??? :) To do a record you need a record and receipts. Proof! Normal people often can't just call the press, so they use this way. Formula 1 - Nasa - Nescar - WRC and all others don't need or do this. They don't need this Company cause they have other ways.They do it professionally with observers and press. Which is significantly more credible than a simple GB entry. Same here. The record was set in companion of a team - plus spectators - plus six independent judges from 3 countries who observed it - PLUS the local press - they certified the record. That's why hundreds of newspaper and media editors and encyclopedia editors worldwide say it is. No room for theories of individuals (patrolheads). Here you can read more about the process in an big Austrian Magazine for example. From the area where it happened.

Also not just one source like normal in WP but far from more then 10! Completely different - different content - different countries - from leading outlets


I already posted 20 or 30 totally different. And there are even much more. Thats why the record is already listed in WP for Years in lifewire article.

Just one of this 2 points is good for full WP Notability. 1 a lot of press coverage all over the world. Permanently - on many subjects. 2 world record.

Easily meets WP:NMOTORSPORT (9) & WP:ANYBIO (3) & (2) This alone would suffice for 200%-300%. Sourced by more then 30 great different sources. Global! Not just national as needed! Surrounded by Interviews, Videos and Podcasts. But although this would be enough twice, there are many more points.

A)According to point 2 AND 3 WP:NCOLLATH (hall of fame) , performance in amateur sports. Everybody is notable if he has national reporting or is in one of national top Positions! This was even achieved not in one but in 5 different areas. Even in 5! Poker- Rally- Grand Prix - Baseball - Motorcycle. Often even with global instead of the required national reporting. Hall of Fame. He is ranked 70th in his country's Poker Hall of Fame. According to HendonMob and International Poker Database. Just this would be enough again to gives notability 5 times again. B) WRC Rally Driver in international races.Place 6 - WP:NMOTORSPORT C) Part of the E Grand Prix with global coverage. WP:NMOTORSPORT and or WP:NCOLLATH (national press needed - also here it got global - see ref ) D) Made a documentary (film) with a very prominent partner Peter Scholl Latour. Mentioned on Imdb - global press - and on the official Swiss Filmmakers' website. Swiss Films. WP:NFILM & WP:ANYBIO (3) & (2) E) Entertainer: A podcast with 10 million views - with international press and featured in the who is who top 100 list at number 30 of 5 countries in Top Magazine. Circulation 400,000, Europe's largest Lifestyle Magazine. WP:ENT WP:ENTERTAINER & WP:ANYBIO (3) & (2)

He also appears to performed at the Terrazza Festival. The mayor festival for electronic music in in Zurich with more then 20,000 people. Also appears to be involved in the Frank Jordan book project with bestselling writer Hausammann. He is named under her Wikipedia picture and quote on website. I'll research that after my vacation.

It has also an entry in numerous standard national biographical dictionarys. For example at Swiss Films (main government dictionary of important swiss film people ) or in Austria. Enycl. run in cooperation from gov. and Tech University Graz.See HERE WP:ANYBIO (3). As well as in 10 other WP internationally. So 50 other WP Authors and Admins from all over the world checked it.

So Admin Ipigott is absolutely correct if he says - the article is sufficiently sourced, Plus: there are 10 other points that are clear and unequivocal. So Clearly

  • Keep:

Seems like we got some petrolheads here and in some not noteabal blogs who just don't like e-mobility in general. This cant be a reason at all to attack it. E-mobility, new energy and climate change is one of the mayor and most important problems of our time! Sadly. Therefore, basically every article that supports this is particularly VERY important and valuable. And this article clearly exceeds the minimum requirements BY FAR in many different ways same time. And like said at beginning. The article is not new. It has been online for years. It was just expanded. NicitaX (talk) 19:31, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Every single one of those links is about the LiveWire distance run (or is an interview that cannot be used to sustain notability), which is already covered on the page related to the LiveWire. NicitaX, please give WP:BLP1E a read and tell us how an article is justified in this case. FOARP (talk) 20:23, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: While I initially closed this as keep [1], I was convinced via a discussion to relist this AFD and request additional discussion around the proposal to merge/redirect the article to LiveWire (motorcycle) per WP:BLP1E.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Malinaccier (talk) 15:24, 16 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]



The afd was over! The decision was KEEP! http://web.archive.org/web/20220616075244/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2022_June_6#Michel_von_Tell

It is absolutely illegal to just start a new one! Other than that, there was no new argument, or any argument at all. It is simply repeat the conspiracy theory of the petrol heads. Nowhere the Newspapers say this! Neither does it say anything about "Tell say anything" or about any "friends". Not appear there. Just in the imagination of some Patrol-heads who don't stop to just say this here!

Like user @4meter4:recognized correctly. He seems to be one of just a few neutral users here in this "debate" besides the two admins who voted for Keep till now. Thanks for being this clever to not just take a quick look and fall in this trap! And for reading all this many stuff I had to write and research against this simply thrown in conspiracy theory's. The Theorys of a group of friends witch spend sooo much energy here to even try to influence privately an admin AFTER the AfD was done. After 10 days of debate!!!! Nearly double as much then intended!!!

The sources and Newspapers say - a record was made. End. Everything else is just a made up conspiracy theory from 1-2 patrol heads. In addition, you can even read about how the record was officially done. Observed by reporters and independent judges witch officially documented it! In this article it is told more detailed by mayor Austrian Magazine. https://www.motorrad-magazin.at//motorrad-magazin.at/artikel/1/85/4179/Rekordfahrt+mit+LiveWire+24+Stunden+Ritt

(Pls use google translator to read in English) This link should do. 

https://www-motorrad--magazin-at.translate.goog//motorrad-magazin.at/artikel/1/85/4179/Rekordfahrt+mit+LiveWire+24+Stunden+Ritt?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Also here you have 10 mayor Newspapers witch ALL say - there is a record!! None of them say something about Tell "claimed" it or he say something at all. None of them says something about any friends. NOTHING. They all say by them self. We got a record! END! 

*  Poland Leading Media

https://www.motocaina.pl/artykul/mamy-nowy-rekord-dystansu-przejechanego-elektrycznym-motocyklem-44547.html 

 * Germany Leading Media

https://web.archive.org/web/20200324111331/https://www.bikeundbusiness.de/e-bike-weltrekord-vier-laender-und-1723-kilometer-a-915844/ 

*  Switzerland Nr 1 Media

https://www.blick.ch/auto/news_n_trends/harley-davidson-livewire-schweizer-faehrt-weltrekord-auf-elektrotoeff-id15818340.html 

*  Asia https://naikmotor.com/147660/rekor-harley-davidson-livewire-24jam-capai-1-723-km
  Latin America Nr1 Media

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Autos/2020/03/24/980873/HarleyDavidson-Livewire-record-moto-elctrica.html 

 * Netherlands Leading Media

https://www.autowereld.com/artikelen/id/29028/zwitser-rijdt-1723-kilometer-in-24-uur-op-elektrische-harley-davidson 

  * Germany Leading Media https://motorzeitung.de/news.php?newsid=632592
  Italia Leading Media

https://www.inmoto.it/news/curiosita/2020/03/26-2874582/l_impresa_1720_km_in_24_ore_su_harley-davidson_livewire/ 

 * Liechtenstein Leading Media https://www.lie-zeit.li/2020/06/zu-besuch-beim-weltmeister-in-der-villa-turm/
  * USA CNBC https://www.hotcars.com/the-future-is-here-electric-motorcycles-you-can-buy-today/
  * https://www.greencars.com/post/harley-davidsons-livewire-ev

No room for a debate!

Furthermore, 10 other clear and unambiguous reasons were given. Regardless of the record the the article is also noteworthy in many other way. clearly and easy met the WP notable rules. This is just wiped away by these patrol-heads. Like it doesn't exist. They just try to frame again there is only the record an nothing else. Why? Because obviously their goal seams to be to get rid of the article. Whatever it takes.

These points listed above and are based on fixed rules. They give no room for a debate! Successful athlete in 5 areas: Rally - Poker - Eco Grand Prix - Baseball - Motorcycle with national and global press.

Media maker in a national Hall of Fame - In some international directories and encyclopedias etc etc are not debatable. WP:NCOLLATH (2&3) Amateur Sport - Hall of fame and national Press. We got this 5 times - in 5 different areas. Most even with GLOBAL press. All 5 of them by itself make notable!!! The rules say clearly. Anyone who fulfills ONE of these points is notable - done! This article meets 10 of this points. Made a documentary (film) with a very prominent partner Peter Scholl-Latour. Mentioned on Imdb - global press and listed official Swiss government website Swiss Films.ch. WP:NFILM & WP:ANYBIO (3) & (2) Entertainer: A podcast with 10 million views - with international press and featured in Top Magazin listed number 30 of 100 in the "who is who" of 5 countries (central Europe). One of the biggest Lifestyle Mags of Europe with 400 000 circulation. Fits AGAIN WP:ENT WP:ENTERTAINER & WP:ANYBIO (3) & (2) without room for debate something.

It has also an entry in numerous standard national biographical dictionary's. For example at SwissFilms (main government dictionary of important swiss film people ) or in Austria. Encyclopedia. Run in cooperation with Austrian gov. and Tech University Graz. See below von tell:0 HERE. Created by Professor Dr. Dr. h. c. mult. Hermann Maurer https://austria-forum.org/af/User/Hermann Maurer. As well as in 10 other WP internationally. So 50 other WP Admins all over the world checked it. Also this alone is the next stand alone point witch makes notable without any room for any debate.WP:ANYBIO (3) And it goes on and on. 10 points witch are all given. Every single of them spendt notability for itself and without room for debate.

We should follow the rules of Wikipedia and not the simplistic opinion of some patrol-heads. The AfD was CLOSED with KEEP and that's with a good reason. So its over without the possibility of just start a new one. And sure not by privately influencing an admin and just throw in the same untrue conspiracy theories again! Or you want to do this again and again till this patrol heads get the vote result they want? That is against ALL rules! What is going on here? Is extremely unfair, questionable and dishonest. Does not violate one WP rule but directly several!

I don't blame the admin who did this. I guess he just was in a hurry and just believe this is a neutral true point. Apparently he was manipulated by a group of patrol heads working as a team to prevent the article. But that's not how it works. A consensus is neither necessary nor is it legal to just restart an AfD after it was ended. There is often no consensus. If you wait for a consensus in the Biden or Trump article you would never get an article! Notability is not based on consensus. Its based on WP rules! If one of the required criteria is met - then 100 users can say delete and it still has to stay!


This article is certainly not about Michael Jackson but for the minimum requirements it fits EASILY. All of you know! There are way more sources then in most other small articles. Just watch the category world record holders. Every second of them just got 1-2 weak source for a "strange" funny kids record. Like longest hair or longest fingernails or something. Some examples? Here you go: Xie Qiuping Shridhar Chillal Austin Vince. This article here has 1-2 good sources for every single line!! Most of them from mayor media of many country's about diff rent topics and over a period of 20 years! Just the fact of the many global media write about this guy make the article notable.


Surprisingly, no one takes action against the article about Rafael de Mestre. It was created at the same time this one was expanded. Although there is by far weaker sources and supporting documents then in this article. As in most other articles. But no one cares. AND This article here passed the AfD already - so its over!

I ask all neutral observers to support me in this pls! One small user alone is helpless against a Team that seems to try to assert personal interests or sensitivities against the person or the green topic. For whatever reason.

Please don't let them manipulate WP. The debate was not neutral from the beginning. It was won and it cant start again and again. What happens here is not right and is against all WP rules! I lost a lot of time on researching all this and try to defend the article against this patrol heads and their 3 line theories. I am shocked what is possible if 2-3 Friends just throw around some dirt! 100 mayor newspapers are worthless if 1-3 WP Friends just spread some theory's. I really hope some normal (neutral) people will help me to stop this witch hunt soon! Special cause "new green mobility" and climate change is special important and a mayor problem of our time. Its really disgusting and a shame to WP if this rule breaking manipulating crusade against this article by some patrol heads finally works!


AfD was done and it was KEEP - also I showed 10 points why a debate was nonsense from the beginning. Its easy to see the article meets SOME - not debatable notability points - of the WP RULES! Not 1 as needed but 10!

http://web.archive.org/web/20220616075244/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2022_June_6#Michel_von_Tell NicitaX (talk) 18:46, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it illegal? We've seen articles come for discussion in AfD 3 times. If you feel the de Maestra article should also be deleted, please nominate it. We're here to discuss it with the community. Feel free to join us. Oaktree b (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also looked in French GNews, being in Switzerland, I would expect to find something about him. Zero sources in French either. Still a delete. Oaktree b (talk) 19:12, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I can feel WP:SNOW coming, based on the length of this discussion so far. Oaktree b (talk) 20:04, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment And so the rants have begun and here....all things come to he who waits. These are not the 'work' of a newbie. I cannot see how any non-notable European self-proclaiming a world record with no evidence would be of interest in the English language Wikipedia.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 22:26, 17 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@NicitaX, please calm down. While you and I are in agreement about the notability of this topic, the lengthy diatribe you wrote above is not going to have a convincing impact. On the contrary, it's only likely to turn other editors off and create more delete votes. Please follow WP:CIVIL and state your opinions without personal attacks. You are not doing yourself any favors or convincing anyone with this sort of behavior. Please WP:Assume Good Faith and realize that everyone is here to improve wikipedia even if we are not always in agreement. Best.4meter4 (talk) 01:59, 18 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I gave up reading it after the first few sentences. What is he claiming, that this guy set a record and people are lying about it or covering it up? Oaktree b (talk) 02:28, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]


And it starts again. NO arguments at all from the patrol head pack. Just POV - conspiracy theories - and cheap talking - against 100 newspaper articles. And ONE newspaper is much more worth then this. This guy from the article says or claim nothing all. You just say so. 100 Newspapers say there is a record. You are the one with the claims conspiracy theories. I show you again.

https://www.motorrad-magazin.at//motorrad-magazin.at/artikel/1/85/4179/Rekordfahrt+mit+LiveWire+24+Stunden+Ritt

(Translator to read in English) This link should do. 

https://www-motorrad--magazin-at.translate.goog//motorrad-magazin.at/artikel/1/85/4179/Rekordfahrt+mit+LiveWire+24+Stunden+Ritt?_x_tr_sl=de&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Also here you have a small selection of mayor Newspapers again.witch ALL say - there is a record!! Because you seam to have huge problems to understand this. :) None of them say something about Tell "claimed" it or he say something at all. None of them says something about any friends. NOTHING. They all say by them self. We got a record!

  • Poland Leading Media

https://www.motocaina.pl/artykul/mamy-nowy-rekord-dystansu-przejechanego-elektrycznym-motocyklem-44547.html

https://www.autowereld.com/artikelen/id/29028/zwitser-rijdt-1723-kilometer-in-24-uur-op-elektrische-harley-davidson


2 continents 2 Interviews 2 different years 2 different topics USA https://www.greencars.com/post/24-hour-eco-grand-prix-race-at-nurburgring

Europe https://www.lie-zeit.li/2020/06/zu-besuch-beim-weltmeister-in-der-villa-turm/

And again. The patrol head conspiracy team - without any arguments - facts or anything. Try to ignore all the 1000 SOURCED reasons for the record and the the 10 other 10 points why he is notable. Even if 2 Admins and some other users already explained 100 times. All delet votes nothing in it that just even close to an argument.. Just bla bla. No one is interested in your personal point of view. In your Theories or your personal point of view or your hate against green technology or something. WP works with good sources. With nothing else! You just had thin air. POV. You just make a fool of yourself by repeating the same "not argument" cospiracy theorie and POV over and over again. And show 1 demonstrating to have nothing then thin air 2 you are not at all interested in a real debate - not neutral and highly personally motivated. Else you made your point once and not return 20 times with the same nothing. We had 10 well SOURCED arguments why this person is notable and hits not 1 but 10 DIFFERENT WP guidelines in 5 to 10 different topics - beside the proven record. And every child sees that. And that's why not 1 but 2 Admins already said GO - and END the debate already with a keep decision! http://web.archive.org/web/20220616075244/https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Log/2022_June_6#Michel_von_Tell NicitaX (talk) 19:31, 19 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Can provide a brief explanation as to what your point is exactly? Too much info above, I think your point got lost in the noise. Oaktree b (talk) 12:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Everything above is still just about the LiveWire run and/or an interview (i.e., not an independent source). All of the relevant information is on the LiveWire article page. Delete or redirect to LiveWire (motorcycle) it is. FOARP (talk) 09:21, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am away presently with weak wifi (reminiscent of dial-up speeds, but it improves around midnight). I was first involved in motorcycles 58 years ago and it has never been possible to self-claim a world record without evidence - this is normally direct involvement of an accredited lead body, such as FIM for motorcycle racing records, with the AMA being not ratified for 'world', only US. For a comparison, search 'Electric Terry' (Terry Hershner) - I can't get into these general search returns, as the images/embedded adverts are not loading. The rants above are continuing, as in last sequence, (per deny no other remarks here). There are not even any images or video for v Tell, is ridiculous IMO considering he is accoladed as a filmmaker. All of the fringe, mostly-European websites that were mooted before/now are simply churnalism, ie., regurgitated press releases. There is an urgency, an insistence from this new user, mirroring the past.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 12:27, 21 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm interested to see how this turns out, this is the longest AfD I've been involved with. Not so much for the decision, but the sheer output of the discussion involved, it's so passionate. Oaktree b (talk) 02:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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